There’s currently a bit of a fuss going on in London because a vicar invited a group to have Muslim prayers inside his church.
This is a fuss blown out of all proportion. What the Rev Giles Goddard, the vicar of St John’s Waterloo has done is unremarkable and the trouble seems to be coming from those who are also troubled by his offering to affirm gay couples, as much as anything to do with the Muslims.
It seems important to state that I’ve offered Muslims the opportunity to hold worship in St Mary’s.
A couple of years ago one of the local mosques was being refurbished and they needed somewhere to meet for Friday prayers for six weeks. A group from the mosque committee came to me to ask whether there was any possibility of them using St Mary’s Cathedral.
I met with them and did indeed offer our space to them.
In the end, they didn’t take up the offer as they were worried that we didn’t have enough floorspace for them. (Not the first time I’ve cursed the immovable pews).
The things worth noting here are these:
- Every Christian I spoke to about this wanted it to go ahead as part of the basic hospitality that we think is part of our faith.
- Every Muslim I spoke to at the time spoke to me about precedents from history when Christians had been offered sanctuary in mosques and protection from Muslim communities whilst they worshipped there.
- There was never controversy over this at all.
Related to this is the fact that I’ve twice asked Islamic Scholars (one Shia and one Sunni) to give a reading from the Qur’an during our carol service here in St Mary’s. Being surrounded by members of different Islamic communities in this part of Glasgow, the diverse congregation gathered to celebrate Christ’s birth in St Mary’s seemed both delighted and entranced to discover that members of another faith held the birth of of Jesus to Mary in the highest honour. Again, on each occasion when this happened there was delight and joy all around and not the slightest hint of controversy. The most recent occasion involved a sung recitation from the Qur’an and then a translation. The sound still rings in my ears when I see local Muslims in the street.
It is worth noting in passing that the Islamic group that Giles Goddard invited into St John’s was unusual in that it welcomes men and women to pray together – something a lot of good Anglicans might be inclined to say was a good idea.
And another thing. I’ve heard on the grapevine that a mixed group of young people, Muslim and Christian was present in Liverpool Cathedral one year on Ash Wednesday when Justin Welby was the Dean. To some surprise, the Muslim young people came forward to receive the ashes on their foreheads along with everyone else.
I believe that the quick thinking Dean (now the Archbishop of Canterbury) said something like: “May the God of Abraham which is both my God and yours bless you and keep you safe this day” and firmly put the ash on all their heads. Such things are the everyday stuff of ministry. Entirely uncontroversial and a delight and a parable of the way things should be, to all involved.
Anyone wanting to throw stones at Giles Goddard over this might find that they bounce off and hit the Archbishop of Canterbury instead.
And those who want to stir up trouble between faiths, motivated by latent homophobia, should look deep into their souls before they next try to look the God of love in the eye.
Over at Episcopal Café we welcome your comments on this development:
http://www.episcopalcafe.com/no-more-muslim-prayer-services-in-coe-church/
(For the avoidance of doubt, as our Scottish lawyers say, it is actually Dr Hannah, both my degrees being from theology departments. That neither improves nor weakens my arguments.)
You see, Ian, I don’t think there is more than one God. I am mildly astonished that you do, and I can see that this does give you problems. In fact I suppose it changes the whole ball game. For those who believe there is only one God, then all our worship is directed to God. I am happy to worship along side others, as long as they understand what (in broad terms) my ideas of God are, and that I do not agree with them upon everything. I think one can take it that Muslims understand that Christians believe that Jesus is fully a man, and fully God, even as they disagree with us. We are not disavowing our beliefs if we worship along side them. and let me try one last time. Allah is a word for God. To call God ‘Allah’ no more means one accepts all the ideas of Islam than calling God ‘Deus’ means accepting all the ideas of Rome about Jove. If there were genuine misunderstanding then it might be different. But there quite plainly is no misunderstanding.
Rosemary, I find it odd that you are ‘mildly astonished.’ All I am doing, at one level, is picking up Paul’s exploration of this question (in a not dissimilar context) from 1 Cor 8: 4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so–called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
It is interesting here that, in the context of dispute about whether other gods are ‘real’, Paul returns to the Shema of Deut 6.4, and then folds the identity of Jesus into this (Prof Larry Hurtado describes this as ‘dyadic’). But it is also interesting that Paul leaves open the question of whether the other gods are ‘real’.
This in turn leads to the philosophical question of whether Christian belief is monotheistic in the strict sense (‘There is only one God’) or actually henotheistic (‘There is only one God who is worthy of our worship’).
But at another level, I am just making a common sense observation. If we are all (perhaps inadequately) worshipping the same one God, who should we include in that? You propose Muslims, but what about Sikhs or Hindus? Or Buddhists, who are not sure they are worshipping a god at all? Or animists, who worship the life force in all creation? What about people who worship the forces that direct psychics, or the movements of planets? What about Satanists—is the Satan that they worship really God in disguise? And what about those who worship mammon, or sex in our culture?
When is a god not a god? And when a god is a god, in what sense is it a representation of the one true God? Where do you draw the line, and on what grounds?
So, who or what do you think the Muslims in St John’s Waterloo were in fact worshipping Ian?
And are you saying that you yourself lean towards a henotheistic view rather than monotheism?
Such is the complexity of this thread and such is the business of my day, I’ve only just found this. Ian, one thing you can be perfectly sure Muslims are not doing is worshipping idols. Nor indeed do the believe in a multiplicity of gods. I do not think I understand your point.
David I put my title because I don’t much like Ms – I am usually Rosemary, but I use my academic title and not Miss, Mrs or Ms. I was Very careful to say I do not think it makes any difference to my arguments. But it does happen to be my correct title.
Never fear Dr Hannah, I love to add levity to seriousness. Father K has allowed me to do it twice in this thread. I like to think that it’s something that Jesus would do!
“Allah” just means “God” in Arabic: Arabic-speaking Christians use it All.The.Time.
Are we THAT wed, idolatrously, to the word “G – O – D”? If not, unless these Muslims said something specifically *against* the Christian proclamation (“Jesus is Not the Son of God!” “Cursed be he who does not acknowledge Muhammad as greater than Jesus!”), what’s the problem?
As Jesus held up the Good Samaritan as model (of hospitality to the outsider), I’m SO glad we could offer hospitality to Inclusive Muslims. Jesus smiled. 🙂
Quick thinking indeed from Dean Welby in Liverpool cathedral in the unusual choice of words that he used but did he mark our Muslim brothers and sisters with the Christian Cross or the Muslim Cresent?
It is heartening to read that the Dean of Glasgow is being so protective towards the ABC when he has been so critical of Justin Welby in previous blog entries.
Thank you – I’ve been critical of things that Justin Welby has said and done, not of Justin Welby. That’s a fine distinction but not one that is widely understood.
I’m not the Dean of Glasgow though.
Dear Kelvin, I always read your blog with interest, and usually with hearty agreement, so I find it disquieting to be in disagreement with you and some other contributors to this discussion. Let me say that I am no scriptural literalist, I am strongly pro-gay, and I try to be alert to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. If I have to stick a label on myself – though I dislike labels – I am a liberal minded Catholic Anglican.
It seems to me that much of what has been said in this discussion reveals the perennial weakness of mere liberalism, which is that it ends by reducing itself to a benevolent individualism where each can choose what s/he will believe. As Christians, however, we are baptised into one Body, and that involves us in adherence to the creeds of the Church. I am not free to believe what I like on the central doctrines of the faith, and at the heart of them stands Jesus Christ, “the only-begotten Son of God.” If we are not going to adhere to that teaching and proclaim it – along with the Trinitarian faith of which it is part – then it is time for us to shut up shop.
Talk about belief in one God is misleading. Nobody, I imagine, is seriously disputing that God is one. It matters a great deal, however, what we believe about that God, and once again the creeds of the Church have to be our foundation. For that reason, and with no desire to be hostile, I do not think it is appropriate to invite those who do not adhere to the Christian creeds to make their formal prayers in our churches. (For that matter, I would consider that I was showing disrespect were I to make my Christian prayers in a synagogue or mosque.) By all means let us strive to live in peace and mutual good will with those of other faiths, but not at the price of playing down the core beliefs of our own faith. We have no business removing the scandal of the Incarnation and the Cross.
I’m unsure as to how inviting Muslims to a Carol Service is in any way removing the scandal of the incarnation.
I’d have thought it was quite good way of sharing our delight in the God who has come amongst us.
As I’ve said before, I say the Creed without crossing my fingers.
I don’t see it works like that. Let me put it another way – sometimes, at Christmas or Easter, one of my children will come to church. None of them are Christians, though the degree to which they do not believe varies. Do I feel that their being there somehow makes MY acts of faith invalid? No. In fact I welcome them being there, I enjoy it.
Years ago at school, I was in a minority in believing. Looking back, the headmistress who took the services had no faith at all (and the way that I as Scripture Monitor put mine into action irritated her weekly). But the services where I collaborated with her over what was (in those days) an avowedly Christian act of worship were not, I think, either less or more valid because of her participation.
It is a matter of fact that I share more common belief in God with Muslims than I do with my children, and a great deal more than I did with the headmistress of my school. Why does sharing what we CAN share in any way involve compromising what we cannot?
The Muslims who worship along side us know what we believe, they do not expect us to disavow it, or expect us to ask them to disavow what they believe. We share what we can. What we cannot share, we respect in each other.
The whole upset in London seems to be based on the idea that undertaking worship with others can only be done when identical beliefs are present – and given how varied beliefs are in the average congregation on a Sunday that must make for some difficulties.
Weird, isn’t it – Emmanuel Episcopal Church in Boston, Mass can have a full Jewish expression of faith within it for years and no comment from the usual suspects, but when a gay man invites a group of Muslims to say some prayers led by a woman in a church in London all hell breaks loose.
http://www.emmanuelboston.org/commun…/central-reform-temple/
Dear Not the Dean of Glasgow, You obviously do things differently North of the Border than we do here in England as, for example, the Dean of Durham is definitely the Dean of Durham! A very fine distinction indeed between what a person says and the person themselves which is not at all easy to differentiate, separate or divorce.
However, there is a world of difference at the Imposition of Ashes between saying “May the God of Abraham, which us both my God and yours bless you and keep you safe this day” and “Remember that you are dust, and to dust you shall return. Turn away from sin and be faithful to Christ.” The latter reminds us of our mortality and is also highly evangelistic in nature, including, as it does, the need for repentance.
Congratulations, Dean Kelvin for coming up with the most novel reason for the removal of pews i.e. to enable Moslems to worship with greater ease in a Christian fane. I wonder what the DAC would make of that?
By the way, may I congratulate you on your fascinating, entertaining, stimulating and controversial Blog. Since I discovered it I have become a regular viewer, often disagreeing with what you write but at the same time finding your words to be both thought provoking and challenging. Thank you.
We don’t have DACs.
I’m not a dean.
With regards to the incident in Liverpool, I suggest you take it up with the person whose thumb it was – Justin Welby.
http://thurible.net/100-things/
no 35
My apologies in erroneously referring to you as Dean, Mr. Provost. I should have read your title page with greater care. In England Provosts were abolished some time ago and all English cathedrals now have Deans.