• What should ecumenical and interfaith dialogue actually be about?

    I’ve taken, in the manner of Jeremy Corbyn, to asking for suggestions for things that I might write about on the blog. This article stems from a suggestion by Hugh Foy via twitter.

    It seems to me that in Scotland, things are very different within the ecumenical movement to where we are thinking about interfaith. Indeed, I’d say that it is difficult to see much energy these days within the ecumenical world whereas, I think there’s still a lot of interest in things interfaith.

    For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, ecumenical is to do with how churches within Christianity relate to one another and interfaith is to do with how churches relate to other believers and maybe atheists, secular humanists and other groups focused around non-belief too.

    Ecumenical endeavour and interfaith work feel very different because I think that there has been a default position within the ecumenical movement to focus on that which unites churches and to ignore the things which divide the churches and also ignore the things which divide people in churches one from other. It is an understandable thing to do but it seems to have led us into a bit of a cul-de-sac. Action for Churches Together in Scotland, the main ecumenical organisation in Scotland is currently celebrating its 25th anniversary. I remember very well the hopes that surrounded its founding – particularly since it represented the first time that the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland had become a member of an ecumenical body. Unfortunately the arrival of the Roman Catholics led to the withdrawal of the Baptists. Even more unfortunately, when the Scottish Parliament came along, the Roman Catholic Church opted to set up its own parliamentary lobbying office in addition to the Scottish Churches Parliamentary Office.

    I have never known the ecumenical movement to be at such a low ebb as it is at the moment. I say that whilst trying not to make value judgements about it. It just doesn’t seem to have much energy nor a huge amount of relevance to the life of the churches. This is partly because there have been competing visions of what ecumenism would lead to. The most passionate advocates of ecumenism hoped very greatly that there would be a move towards the organic unity of at least some of the denominations involved. The last great attempt was something called SCIFU which was an attempt to bring several of the churches into one new denomination that would have been distinguished by retaining all the buildings (“worship centres”) of the former churches and also importing every different flavour of church governance that was known to Christendom. It was a madcap scheme (and here I do start to make gentle value judgements) that deserved to fail because of its insanity. (And here I depart from being gentle and pretending to be objective). It would have left us drowning in governance structures and magnifying our problems with buildings forever more.

    There have been some noble attempts to find something to build on from the ashes of the SCIFU experiment, not least the EMU efforts between the Episcopal, Methodist and United Reformed Churches. These are successful in that they would be entirely unknown by most of our church members but give those who like that sort of thing something to have a passion about. I’m convinced that here will be no further attempt at organic unity that affects my own church within my lifetime even if life on our own becomes terribly difficult. Better well hung than ill wed – as Kierkegaard’s rather vivid translation of Shakespeare would have it.

    People are making their own ecumenism anyway. My own congregation is made up of people from all kinds of traditions very happily worshipping together. Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Methodists, Cradle Anglicans and Anglican Converts, Baptists, the odd atheist or agnostic and those on the run from the Brethren all happily receive communion together and sing God’s praises with laldy and I don’t think I ever hear any arguments or trouble about where we all come from – we just get on with it. The governance of St Mary’s falls within the Scottish Episcopal Church and my own sense of identity as an Episcopalian is something I care about hugely but I have to recognise that a lot of people are happy simply to receive their formation from one church and then live in an entirely different one, which may have quite distinct doctrines, without caring a bean about it nor even moving their membership formally from one to another. Others within the community do care and do need ceremonies and ways of marking their decision to pitch their tent under the Episcopalian umbrella, to mangle a metaphor into a rather glorious image of togetherness. I have to care both for people who do care about denominations and those who don’t.

    There’s a big contrast when we start to deal with the interfaith movement. The best thing about the interfaith movement is that we are at the discovery level in most of our engagement at the moment. We are going through a period where we are literally getting to know one another and even better, there’s far less expectation than within the ecumenical movement that we all think the same things.

    Within the ecumenical movement the basic presumption for many people is that we all agree and we discover when we get to know one another that we don’t. Within the interfaith movement the base principle is that we are different and don’t agree and then when we get to know one another we are often surprised by how much we recognise and how much we do actually agree on in the end. This actually makes interfaith work easier in some respects. There are fewer expectations and fewer ways in which you can fail.

    Now, I think that ecumenism and the interfaith movement could benefit from talking about some hard topics.

    A little while ago I was at a banquet that some Muslim folk had invited Christian leaders to in order to celebrate one of their festivals. I found myself sitting with a Sheikh and a Roman Catholic archbishop. All of a sudden in the middle of the dinner, things go interesting when the Sheikh leaned across and said to the Archbishop and me, “Tell me about how the Christians are dealing with homosexuality”.

    All of a sudden, ecumenical and interfaith became completely entwined. It was a good setting for a conversation and I know that each of us learned something whilst eating our onion bhajis. It was a grace filled conversation because it took place over food in an atmosphere of friendship where no-one’s reputation was at stake. Was sodomy the same as homosexuality? Was homosexuality amongst women different to homosexuality amongst men? What was our attitude to changes in the law? How did different age groups within our communities deal with these questions differently? How had our communities been taken by surprise by changing social attitudes?

    My hunch is that the interfaith movement may yet prove to be the salvation of the ecumenical movement. As Christianity encounters other faiths, its practitioners encounter one another. And I think that we’ll find that both informal conversations and formal ones need to go alongside one another. It could well be that we need more of the informal if we are going to deal with any of the real questions that matter to us. In such contexts we will may be able more easily to deal with the things that clearly matter to us all – poverty, LGBT issues, ways in which women and men relate to each other, God and society, safety on the streets, immigration, globalisation and so on. One thing is clear to me and that is that if ecumenism is only about ecumenism and interfaith dialogue is simply about interfaith dialogue then each has failed utterly.

    Throwing a banquet or two for our interfaith friends may well the best way for Christians to get on. Is not extravagant hospitality not one of the hallmarks of what it means to be an authentic faith community in the first place?

    Anyone want to establish the Banqueting Committee of ACTS?

    If so, I’m in.

7 responses to “Assisted Dying – Why I’ve changed my mind”

  1. BobS Avatar
    BobS

    You lucidly illustrated an example of a family seeking to pressurise someone to influence the process of death. But what was possibly missing was the voice of the person nearing death. Where was their perspective, their reasoning? Assisted Dying starts and driven by the person dying. They are the ones who, with mental capacity, take those steps, if necessary, to expedite death at that final stage. They, together with medical experts, make those decisions.
    The examples cited refer to a family desperate for a skiing holiday and your concern of funeral directors making money through direct cremations.
    I fully agree with your desire for a better palliative care system. Having witnessed their work it is amazing. But that is another argument. To conflate the two dismisses the voice of those seeking assisted dying.
    Your concern over assisted dying seems to be interwoven by a call for improved palliative care and a demise in direct cremations.

    1. Rev Owain Jones Avatar

      Respectfully, Bob S, I think you’re overlooking the one thing that struck me very forcefully from this incident. I’ve always felt profoundly uneasy at the likelihood – I’d say ‘moral certainty’ – that the voice of the dying will in some cases be influenced, even swayed, by the dying person’s assumptions, inferences or intuitions (correct or not) about the needs of those closest to them, and even their desires. These desires might not be articulated, or even correctly guessed – but they might, and as soon as the dying person is subject to them, they are, by definition, influenced in their decision. At that point, Assisted Dying can no longer be said “to start and driven by the person dying.” I’ve been there for a long time – but what I suddenly realized reading Kelvin Holdsworth’s post, was that there’s a much darker issue here, and it relates to a fundamental principle to which I’ve always adhered. Please bear with me, and entertain for a moment an analogy which you might consider to be extreme, and which I’d be appalled to hear deployed by the religiously fanatical opponents of Assisted Dying. It’s this. I have always been opposed to the death penalty for a number of reasons, but very prominent among them is that it takes to an extreme the testing of a fundamental principle of justice (which I know I’m modifyng here to make the analogy a better fit, and of course, you’re free to take issue with that): “It is better that a hundred guilty men go free than that one innocent person be punished unjustly.” I’m aware that there’s a very significant separation between that and this, but I don’t believe it amounts to ‘clear blue water’. Let me try and articulate my conviction in a reasonable way, for you to consider, even if you reject it. I think that there’s a huge danger inscribed in legislation which will, of a moral certainty, permit circumstances in which unwilling dying individuals give assent under pressure to the active premature termination of their lives. This holds true even if a hundred times as many individuals assent freely, and even actively seek, such termination. One of the things that always made me uneasy about the Vulcans was the assertion that “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”. There seems to me to be no way in any legislation to protect the needs and rights of the few in this issue. At the very least, I think that needs to be acknowledged openly by proponents of Assisted Dying. If we’re about to be taken across a Rubicon, I believe that everyone, on both sides of the decision, need to acknowledge that. (Incidentally, I completely agree with Kevin Holdsworth’s horror (I hope I’m expressing that fairly) at ‘Direct Cremations’ and the way they’re advertised. They seem to me to be open profiteering from the death-phobic culture in which we’re immersed. I fear that the impulses behind Assisted Dying as currently advocated may be a good-faith manifestation of the inability of society to look at the full actuality of human mortality and the relationship between life and death. I may be deluding myself, but I think I’d say that even if I were an atheist.

    2. Val Dobson Avatar
      Val Dobson

      You are wrong to connect funeral companies’ promotion of Direct Cremation with the push for assisted dying. Nowadays, many families simply cannot afford a “proper” funeral / cremation, and funeral grants come nowhere to covering the the costs. The funeral companies are simply responding to customer needs.

      1. Kelvin Avatar

        I’m happy to speak out about funerals being too expensive. However, it is manifestly not the case taht funeral companies are simply responding to customer needs. If they did they would promote these as being about price. They don’t – they promote them as being about not causing a fuss, which is the point I’m making here.

  2. Nigel Kenny Avatar
    Nigel Kenny

    Thank you for your wise and persuasive words – may they influence MSPs to vote against the Bill.

  3. Chriatine McIntosh Avatar
    Chriatine McIntosh

    Thanks for this, Kelvin – I’ve been thinking more about this as contemporaries begin to vanish from this life.

  4. Helen Leslie Avatar
    Helen Leslie

    Thank you Kelvin. I am someone who has spent the majority of my working life caring for people at the end of their lives. You said exactly what I would want to.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Previous Posts

  • Running about in the Dust

    Yesterday in St Mary’s we marked an anniversary – it is 25 years since the Scottish Episcopal Church first ordained people as deacons who happened to be female. One of the first of those deacons was with us yesterday – The Rev Jeanette Jenkins was present at the 11 am service and preached for an…

  • A Kind of Writing

    Gosh, Stan Barstow has died. I must have read most of his novels at one time or another but it is quite a long time since I did so. He was one of the old boys of one of the schools I went to. He was soemtimes one of the features at Prize Days, along…

  • Head on over to Beth’s Blog

    I think it is time to give Beth a shout out and encourage you all to head over to her blog The Road Less Travelled. Beth is training to be a doctor and is very often found around about St Mary’s but at the moment she is in Tanzania trying not to get eaten by…

  • Mary Magdelene – more

    I don’t often link to sermons that are preached outside St Mary’s, but couldn’t resist linking to this sermon from the Very Rev June Osborne which was preached last week on the Feast of St Mary Magdalene. It is a great sermon dealing with some of the Mary Magdelene issues that we were thinking about…