• Fact checking Sandi Toksvig

    Sandi Toksvig has published an open letter to the Archbishop of Canterbury that a lot of people are getting very excited about as it seems to be a slam dunk refutation of the wicked, homophobic Archbishop of Canterbury.

    The only trouble with the letter is that it is based on a number of claims about the Archbishop and the Lambeth Conference that are not in fact actually true.

    For example:

    • “You and your other religious pals got together at the Lambeth Conference and the main take away seems to be that gay sex is a sin.”

    Well, no, Justin Welby hasn’t said that gay sex is a sin and neither has the Lambeth Conference. You can read his actual words and check: https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/speaking-writing/speeches/lambeth-call-human-dignity-read-archbishop-justins-remarks

    • It was a sin in 1998 and you just wanted to make clear in 2022 that no-one in your finely frocked gang has moved on from that.”

    Well, actually the Lambeth resolution in 1998 that gave cause to all this never mentioned sin. You can check that out here: https://www.anglicancommunion.org/resources/document-library/lambeth-conference/1998/section-i-called-to-full-humanity/section-i10-human-sexuality

    The Guardian and some reports on the BBC suggested this week that the conference reaffirmed that gay sex was a sin. But it didn’t. It actually didn’t do that.

    What’s more, the Archbishop’s actual words this week both in his letter to the bishops and in his remarks explicitly spoke of those who had moved on from the 1998 resolution. Indeed, he legitimised them (us!) within Anglicanism.  Again, check his own words here: https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/speaking-writing/speeches/lambeth-call-human-dignity-read-archbishop-justins-remarks

    Speaking of the churches which have moved to marry and/bless same sex couples, he said, “They have not arrived lightly at their ideas that traditional teaching needs to change. They are not careless about scripture. They do not reject Christ. But they have come to a different view on sexuality after long prayer, deep study and reflection on understandings of human nature. For them, to question this different teaching is unthinkable, and in many countries is making the church a victim of derision, contempt and even attack. For these churches not to change traditional teaching challenges their very existence.”

    What Sandi Toksvig says is demonstrably the opposite of what Justin Welby did.

    • “Seriously, with the state the world is in, that is what you wanted to focus on? You didn’t have other more pressing matters like, I don’t know, war or poverty?”

    Actually the bishops spent just over an hour in a two week conference on this topic. The rest of the time has been spent on things like, oh, you know, war, poverty, climate change, safeguarding etc. Again, this is easily found out by reading the Lambeth Calls document – https://www.lambethconference.org/programme/lambeth-calls/

    What Sandi Toksvig says is again demonstrably the opposite of what actually happened.

    There’s lots to be cross about when it comes to the way the churches deal with sexuality. If it were me, I’d be cross with the C of E bishops staying silent, particularly those who are suspected of being supportive of same-sex couples being able to marry.

    But attacking Justin Welby in this way this week seems grossly unfair, not least in that this week he has spoken of the validity of the churches which have started to marry same-sex couples and stood up to those who want such churches to be thrown out of the Anglican Communion or otherwise disciplined. Again, his own words are published. They are easily checked. https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/speaking-writing/speeches/lambeth-call-human-dignity-read-archbishop-justins-remarks

    He actually said:

    “I neither have, nor do I seek, the authority to discipline or exclude a church of the Anglican Communion. I will not do so. I may comment in public on occasions, but that is all. We are a Communion of Churches, not a single church.”

    I’ve been the first to criticise Justin Welby when I’ve disagreed with him in the past. However, I suspect that Justin Welby’s words this week will pave the way, eventually, to new paths of inclusion within the Church of England when the Living in Love and Faith process that all their bishops are clutching to themselves like so many fig-leaves, fails.

    The Anglican Communion has, witheringly slowly, moved a few steps in an inclusive direction this week.

    Sandi Toksvig’s argument is a straw man.

    She’s got things factually wrong.

     

     

     

7 responses to “Oh Lord, Kum by yah”

  1. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    I think the fact you feel glad that you are taking part shows a start to a good day hopefully.
    I really hope with Lambeth on a few months away and talk of sexuality in everyones minds that the listening day is productive!

  2. vicky Avatar
    vicky

    Like Kelvin I was not going to attend this day but am doing so now because of a change in how the day has been designed.

    However, I am under no illusions. We may all listen and we may all feel closer by the end of the day. We may also end up watching a dismaying Lambeth conference in which the status quo or even a more conservative line is opted for.

    One thing that needs to be heard is that, as things stand, being gay in the Church is a vulnerable position and one in which we are ‘allowed’ to be part of the Church because of the nice liberal contingent. Until we move away from a debate about whether or not it’s time to fully ‘integrate’ the LGBT members into the Church, LGBTers will always be outsiders invited into the Church to share at God’s table.
    I, for one, look forward to a day when I don’t need to share my experience of being gay in the Church because it really isn’t of any importance. The trouble is to get to that point we still need to move an awful lot further than we have.

    The question that I am left with now is, does a Christian denomination have to have membership rules or is testimony enough?

  3. chris Avatar

    Vicky, you’ve articulated very clearly what I’ve been thinking. I hope I can help to make this realisation grow, somehow. There’s still a long way to go, sadly.

  4. Lark Rise Avatar
    Lark Rise

    Whose ‘Church’ – in the widest sense – is it ?

    Christ Himself seems to have imposed little in the way of ‘membership rules’, inclusivity being for all. Tho many turned away and excluded themselves when face to face with Him and the challenge of Who He Was…

    That the ‘established’ church is being so small-minded and bigotted to so many loving, caring, beautiful Christ-ones begs that first question – ‘Whose church ?’

    Sheep and goats come to mind…….. and does a goat recognise that it is a goat……?

    (Despite current scientific understanding, the miracle of genetic change of ‘goat’ to ‘sheep’ is possible thru the intervention of the Almighty – S Paul found out about that – so hang in there sheeps – there’s some of us out here outside of your technically LGBTs fold who are rootin’ for yeez……)

  5. Kenny Avatar

    Amen to that, Lark Rise!

  6. Peter Ould Avatar

    Do you have a copy of what the agenda now is?

  7. chris Avatar

    The agenda is available to download here

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Previous Posts

  • Last Year’s Predictions

    Each year I try to make some predictions at New Year. And each year I take a look back on Hogmanay to see how I did. Here’s the rundown of how I did last year. 1 Those who voted YES in the Scottish Referendum will continue to behave as though they won. This may be…

  • Christmas Day Sermon 2015

    It is quite a number of years since I spent Christmas with my parents. Ordination tends to give one other things to do at this time of the year than to race about the country trying to keep a family Christmas. And in any case, I rather like the Christmas I keep these days. The…

  • Midnight Mass Sermon 2015

    So where did you learn the Christmas story? Where did you first hear about the baby in the manger? I’ve been thinking about this a lot since a sermon that one of my colleagues preached earlier this year in which he suggested that in fact more people know about the story of Bethlehem from the…

  • A Christmas Message for the LGBT+ Communities

    This piece appeared first at Kaleidoscot, an online publication for Scotland’s LGBT communities. The first Christmas after I was ordained nearly 20 years ago, I happened to come down sick before Christmas. My senior colleague had to take all the services instead of us sharing them and all I could do was drag myself to…