• Fact checking Sandi Toksvig

    Sandi Toksvig has published an open letter to the Archbishop of Canterbury that a lot of people are getting very excited about as it seems to be a slam dunk refutation of the wicked, homophobic Archbishop of Canterbury.

    The only trouble with the letter is that it is based on a number of claims about the Archbishop and the Lambeth Conference that are not in fact actually true.

    For example:

    • “You and your other religious pals got together at the Lambeth Conference and the main take away seems to be that gay sex is a sin.”

    Well, no, Justin Welby hasn’t said that gay sex is a sin and neither has the Lambeth Conference. You can read his actual words and check: https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/speaking-writing/speeches/lambeth-call-human-dignity-read-archbishop-justins-remarks

    • It was a sin in 1998 and you just wanted to make clear in 2022 that no-one in your finely frocked gang has moved on from that.”

    Well, actually the Lambeth resolution in 1998 that gave cause to all this never mentioned sin. You can check that out here: https://www.anglicancommunion.org/resources/document-library/lambeth-conference/1998/section-i-called-to-full-humanity/section-i10-human-sexuality

    The Guardian and some reports on the BBC suggested this week that the conference reaffirmed that gay sex was a sin. But it didn’t. It actually didn’t do that.

    What’s more, the Archbishop’s actual words this week both in his letter to the bishops and in his remarks explicitly spoke of those who had moved on from the 1998 resolution. Indeed, he legitimised them (us!) within Anglicanism.  Again, check his own words here: https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/speaking-writing/speeches/lambeth-call-human-dignity-read-archbishop-justins-remarks

    Speaking of the churches which have moved to marry and/bless same sex couples, he said, “They have not arrived lightly at their ideas that traditional teaching needs to change. They are not careless about scripture. They do not reject Christ. But they have come to a different view on sexuality after long prayer, deep study and reflection on understandings of human nature. For them, to question this different teaching is unthinkable, and in many countries is making the church a victim of derision, contempt and even attack. For these churches not to change traditional teaching challenges their very existence.”

    What Sandi Toksvig says is demonstrably the opposite of what Justin Welby did.

    • “Seriously, with the state the world is in, that is what you wanted to focus on? You didn’t have other more pressing matters like, I don’t know, war or poverty?”

    Actually the bishops spent just over an hour in a two week conference on this topic. The rest of the time has been spent on things like, oh, you know, war, poverty, climate change, safeguarding etc. Again, this is easily found out by reading the Lambeth Calls document – https://www.lambethconference.org/programme/lambeth-calls/

    What Sandi Toksvig says is again demonstrably the opposite of what actually happened.

    There’s lots to be cross about when it comes to the way the churches deal with sexuality. If it were me, I’d be cross with the C of E bishops staying silent, particularly those who are suspected of being supportive of same-sex couples being able to marry.

    But attacking Justin Welby in this way this week seems grossly unfair, not least in that this week he has spoken of the validity of the churches which have started to marry same-sex couples and stood up to those who want such churches to be thrown out of the Anglican Communion or otherwise disciplined. Again, his own words are published. They are easily checked. https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/speaking-writing/speeches/lambeth-call-human-dignity-read-archbishop-justins-remarks

    He actually said:

    “I neither have, nor do I seek, the authority to discipline or exclude a church of the Anglican Communion. I will not do so. I may comment in public on occasions, but that is all. We are a Communion of Churches, not a single church.”

    I’ve been the first to criticise Justin Welby when I’ve disagreed with him in the past. However, I suspect that Justin Welby’s words this week will pave the way, eventually, to new paths of inclusion within the Church of England when the Living in Love and Faith process that all their bishops are clutching to themselves like so many fig-leaves, fails.

    The Anglican Communion has, witheringly slowly, moved a few steps in an inclusive direction this week.

    Sandi Toksvig’s argument is a straw man.

    She’s got things factually wrong.

     

     

     

11 responses to “A Form of Benediction for Married Persons”

  1. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    If it is proof reading you have got ‘those who are to be married’ p 13 when the liturgy earlier told us they were married. Same p 15.

    As to the situation – plainly it is nuts. I assume it is a softly softly approach designed so that in fifteen years time somebody can say ‘But we have been marrying people in all but name for fifteen years, and nobody has ever objected’ – the not wholly unreasonable belief being that people tend to just-come-round to things. Not wholly unreasonable as this appears to have happened in British society. It takes no account of the difficulties and miseries these fifteen years will cause. Largely because they will not be caused to those formulating the policies, I imagine. And because many of those involved are, in fact, of the generation which has most struggled with the (to me) blindingly obvious that gender is irrelevant to love. That marriage is aobut love, and not gender roles (and women are not subservient in society) (which is what those who actually do believe that marriage is only for the straight all seem to me to believe).

    1. Kelvin Avatar

      Thanks Rosemary. That’s exactly the kind of correction I need. I’ve amended the document.

      I think the worry about waiting for 15 years before finding that we’ve been doing this all along is that vast numbers of people are presuming the church to be poisonous simply because they hear a public message which is that church isn’t for you if you have decent views about gay people.

  2. Kelvin Avatar

    Anyone wanting to see the Scottish Episcopal Church’s actual marriage liturgy to see how completely and utterly different, oh its so different you wouldn’t believe it, you really won’t be able to comprehend how different, it is from what is posted above can find it here:
    http://scotland.anglican.org/index.php/liturgy/liturgy/marriage_liturgy_2007/

  3. Marnie Barrell Avatar
    Marnie Barrell

    I’m puzzled by this expression in one of the prayers – never heard the word.
    “Together we now handsel them.”

    1. Kelvin Holdsworth Avatar

      Check out the notes in the marriage liturgy. It is an old Scots word.

  4. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    Oh yes, I quite agree it it a poisonous situation. But ‘all’ it causes is slow death. People believe that is inevitable (I do not, but they do) and they can face that. What they cannot face is a row. Others in their faces saying things which they have to reply to.

    At least, I assume that is the reason for delay, for the policy of attrition. If anybody can thing of anything else, do tell me.

    Handsel – gift or positive good wish given at the start of an enterprise, or at a significant stage upon it, to wish it well upon its way. Scots word.

  5. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    I am afraid both working for managed decline and the idea that loving somebody of one’s own gender is in any inferior are both ideas which I have no sympathy with or understanding of. We all have out limitations.

  6. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    ‘in any way inferior’ sorry.

  7. Bro David Avatar
    Bro David

    The US or Canada would be a great Honey Moon destination and the happy couple could easily find a number of Anglican parishes in either nation where they could celebrate their wedding nuptials in style!

    1. Kelvin Holdsworth Avatar
      Kelvin Holdsworth

      The possibility of doing things in style has never been in doubt.

  8. Alan McManus Avatar

    Bro David that’s a welcome suggestion. Also welcome is the offer of a good friend on many of us at St Marys who is a minister of the United Presbyterian Church of America (apologies if not exact title) who is now legally and ecclesiastically empowered to conduct marriages between any two persons and intends to do so here in Scotland. Methinks that all this silly shilly shallying about may come to an end when the powers that be realise that where there’s a calenderfull of nuptials there’s noodles of cash. And what church will say no to a sizeable contribution to the roof or organ fund?

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