• Conversations with Catholics (and others)

    KH in pulpit by the crucifix

    Over the next couple of weeks, I’m trying something new and a bit different at St Mary’s. I’m offering coffee and a chat to a couple of different kinds of  people who are always present within the congregation. Tomorrow morning (Saturday 9 January 2016) I’m having a coffee morning for people in the congregation who have Roman Catholic roots. There’s always a significant number of such people in St Mary’s and I thought it might be interesting to get some of us together for a chat. In a fortnight’s time I’ll be repeating the exercise with those who have a background as evangelicals. I’ll see how these go and then see whether  there’s any other groups which might want to meet. A  couple of people said that they grew up as presbyterians and they should have a coffee morning but I’m not sure whether that one is one to go for or not. Another possibility that I’ve thought of is a chat with those who fit the Spiritual Seeker profile – those who’ve meditated with Buddhists, banged their drums, sweated in their sweat lodges, spun in circles and knitted their own lentils. We’ve always got a fair representation from that constituency and it might be interesting to gather such people together.

    However, I’m starting with catholics because I know that those who come from a Roman Catholic background have a common conversation though not necessarily a common experience. Some come to St Mary’s who are quite clear that they are Roman Catholics still and that St Mary’s just happens to be a resting place for them on their journey. Others have an articulate conversation about what they have left behind and why they needed to move on from the Roman Catholic church and find something new. Rather intriguingly there’s a mix between those who come to St Mary’s because it allows them to live out their catholicism and those who come because it allows them to say that they’ve moved on from it.

    St Mary’s offers an interesting place for those with catholic roots to worship. For many there’s the surprise that the worship is just like the worship that they have known within Roman Catholicism.

    I once said to a liturgist that it wonderful, amazing and surprising that the modern Roman Catholic Mass was so similar to the liturgy of the Scottish Episcopal Church. “Not amazing at all!” he exclaimed – “we all of us, Romans and Anglicans and all the rest went to the same liturgy conferences in the 1970s”. Sadly in recent years with the new translation of the Roman Catholic mass into (terrible) English, we’ve moved a little further apart again but you can still very much recognise that things are essentially the same.

    I’m soemtimes puzzled by the reactions of Roman Catholics who find themselves present in St Mary’s. We often have tourists who come from Roman Catholics countries who presume that it is a Roman Catholic church. They do so even, in my experience, when a female colleague has been celebrating at the Sung Eucharist. This puzzles me. But also encourages me a little.

    For many from a catholic background we provide what they would have hoped for from their own church – a mass they recognise, social teaching on sexuality, marriage and divorce that is as positive as the catholic social teaching on economics that they believe in and a shared love and devotion to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist alongside a love for his mother too. There are no doubt negatives – the sorrow of families feeling parted by church divisions over the Eucharist. (Everyone is welcome to receive in St Mary’s but that doesn’t begin to scratch the deep irritations surrounding who is and who is not able to receive communion in various churches). There are also confusing messages that the Scottish Episcopal Church sends out about membership that we might talk about. People tend to know they are Roman Catholics and tend not to be entirely sure whether they are Scottish Episcopalians. That could well be part of the conversation.

    I’m looking forward to this and expect I’ll learn things. The invitation is open to anyone who wants to come and have a coffee with me in the Synod Hall on Saturday morning at 10.30.

9 responses to “The Marriage Business”

  1. Rhea Avatar
    Rhea

    I thought that what the government actually said was more of a “obviously with the current canon laws in place, the C of E and the Church in Wales won’t be able to opt in to marriage equality because their canon laws clearly state that marriage is between one man and one woman.”

    To me the ultimate issue is with the churches and their canon laws that need to be changed, no?

    1. Rhea Avatar
      Rhea

      I just saw this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20680924

      What in the world is the government thinking?!

      1. kelvin Avatar

        Here’s the original announcement – quite clear that it isn’t just about Canon Law. They really are trying to make it illegal for the C of E and Church in Wales to opt in.

        http://www.culture.gov.uk/news/media_releases/9585.aspx

      2. Beth Avatar

        The irony that that Department of Culture page is titled “Marriage For Everyone” absolutely knocks me down.

        I think that this more than anything else that has happened in equal marriage legislation this year has a real chance of being ruled illegal under Article 9 of the Human Rights Convention.

  2. Peter Higson Avatar
    Peter Higson

    Church of England clergy, and Church in Wales clergy, may take note of Giles Fraser’s suggestion: “So it will now be illegal for me to marry two people who live (with) each other. Now there is a cause worth going to prison for.” as report in the Independent.

    1. kelvin Avatar

      Yes – I saw that tweet from Giles. Whilst supporting the sentiment, I suspect that he is going to have to work quite hard to find a judge willing to send him to prison for it.

  3. Martin Reynolds Avatar
    Martin Reynolds

    Yes, bizarre is the right word!

    When the Church in Wales was disestablished back in 1920 it retained its priveledges and responsibilities with regard to marriage.

    So, parishioners’ absolute legal right to be married in the parish church remains, as does the automatic right of Church in Wales clergy to be able to conduct marriages by virtue of their ordination alone.

    We recently amended our requirements for residence to stay in line with the CofE, while they were able to do it through General Synod we had to resort to a Private Bill.

    It now seems there are to be no EXTRA hurdles required by these two Churches, other than the separate Acts of Parliament they would need to change their current practice following agreement of General Synod or Governing Body.

  4. Ali Avatar
    Ali

    “if your denomination cannot or will not opt in then the time has come for you to stand up for what’s right. If you support equality, do something about it and show us what you are made of.” you not doing any more weddings until the SEC opts in then. Kelvin?

    1. kelvin Avatar

      I think it quite likely that should the Scottish Episcopal Church chose not to opt into the coming legislation then I would come to be view that the time had come to stop signing marriage papers. That is not the same thing, of course, as stopping doing weddings.

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