• The #syriavote is not so simple really

    Like many people in the UK, I spent much of yesterday dipping into what was happening in parliament as a long debate took place as to whether this country should engage in military action against ISIL in Syria.

    I once had aspirations to be an MP and that always makes me wonder which division lobby I would have walked into when these moments of national drama take place.

    In this instance I am almost sure that I would have walked into the nay lobby – I’d have voted against extending military action in Syria.

    However, I don’t find this a simple question. It is far more complex than my twitter feed seems to be suggesting. And this morning I’m not rushing to add #notinmyname hashtags to everything. This is a case where I can see merit on both side of the question and I find that my gut reaction which is to be against military action is more pragmatic than ideological.

    I happen not to be a pacifist. I am not a pacifist because I think that sometimes there are evils that may need to be defeated by force. The obvious and classic example is that I think that the allied forces were right to be deployed to defeat Nazism. It was an ideology that threatened all of Europe with its evil. Some things are worth fighting against.

    It is my suspicion that ISIL is something worth fighting against that would have made me pause before casting a vote had I been in parliament last night. I find myself having sympathy with Hilary Benn who identified the threat from ISIL as being the fascism of the day. So many of the same themes emerge – death to the Jews, death to the gays, murderous sectarianism and a direct opposition to democracy. The fact that it now uses terrorism on Western streets and wickedly distorts Islam for its own ends shouldn’t blind us to the fact that we’ve seen fascism before and have believed it should be fought.

    And that’s why I can see that there’s a case for action.

    My problem is largely because I can’t see the action being particularly likely to succeed which is one of the conditions of using force in just war theory.

    I can’t really see that there’s a plan for post conflict rebuilding of Syria yet. I can’t really see how another two bombers will make that much difference – the Americans have been bombing ISIL targets for months and don’t seem to me to have solved the problem. It is inevitable that civilians will die in this action. It is difficult to believe that the action will meet the test of proportionality. I also don’t really believe that you can bomb ideas out of existence.

    And so I find myself believing action to be wrong for pragmatic reasons whilst believing that ISIL should be confronted for ideological reasons. And that would have given me a terrible dilemma has I been in parliament.

    Two things emerged yesterday which I found contemptible. Firstly the Prime Minister’s assertion that those who were against action were terrorist sympathisers. It was beneath the dignity of his office to make such a claim and he should have apologised. Secondly, those who are trying to co-opt this question for the sake of Scottish Nationalism. It should be beneath our dignity as the people of Scotland to co-opt this terrible decision for our local politics. Whether one likes it or not, Scotland chose to remain part of the UK and the UK parliament has made a decision. Being democrats means that sometimes we have to respect the democratic decisions that are made that we don’t like. That’s what being a democrat actually is. That means those who don’t like the result of the Scottish Referendum need to accept that the people of Scotland made an informed choice. It is our parliament that made the decision last night – a decision I happen to find it difficult to support. It is a parliament that the people of Scotland chose to remain a part of. Using ISIL to make cheap nationalist points in this country appals me. If we don’t accept democratic decision making (the referendum, the workings of parliament in which we are all represented etc) then we begin to lose the moral right to stand against the forces which rage against democracy wherever we encounter them.

    We encounter them in ISIL. The question at hand is how to oppose them.

    Last night I think that I would have voted against the government and against the use of force in Syria. However I would have done so with a heavy heart. It is just possible that after listening to the debates I might have voted with the government and for the use of force against the evils of ISIL. I would have done so with an even heavier heart though I would have done so hoping that if my own land was being conquered by fascists, then other countries would intervene.

    That’s why this issue is more complex than my twitter feed seems to find it.

9 responses to “The Marriage Business”

  1. Rhea Avatar
    Rhea

    I thought that what the government actually said was more of a “obviously with the current canon laws in place, the C of E and the Church in Wales won’t be able to opt in to marriage equality because their canon laws clearly state that marriage is between one man and one woman.”

    To me the ultimate issue is with the churches and their canon laws that need to be changed, no?

    1. Rhea Avatar
      Rhea

      I just saw this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20680924

      What in the world is the government thinking?!

      1. kelvin Avatar

        Here’s the original announcement – quite clear that it isn’t just about Canon Law. They really are trying to make it illegal for the C of E and Church in Wales to opt in.

        http://www.culture.gov.uk/news/media_releases/9585.aspx

      2. Beth Avatar

        The irony that that Department of Culture page is titled “Marriage For Everyone” absolutely knocks me down.

        I think that this more than anything else that has happened in equal marriage legislation this year has a real chance of being ruled illegal under Article 9 of the Human Rights Convention.

  2. Peter Higson Avatar
    Peter Higson

    Church of England clergy, and Church in Wales clergy, may take note of Giles Fraser’s suggestion: “So it will now be illegal for me to marry two people who live (with) each other. Now there is a cause worth going to prison for.” as report in the Independent.

    1. kelvin Avatar

      Yes – I saw that tweet from Giles. Whilst supporting the sentiment, I suspect that he is going to have to work quite hard to find a judge willing to send him to prison for it.

  3. Martin Reynolds Avatar
    Martin Reynolds

    Yes, bizarre is the right word!

    When the Church in Wales was disestablished back in 1920 it retained its priveledges and responsibilities with regard to marriage.

    So, parishioners’ absolute legal right to be married in the parish church remains, as does the automatic right of Church in Wales clergy to be able to conduct marriages by virtue of their ordination alone.

    We recently amended our requirements for residence to stay in line with the CofE, while they were able to do it through General Synod we had to resort to a Private Bill.

    It now seems there are to be no EXTRA hurdles required by these two Churches, other than the separate Acts of Parliament they would need to change their current practice following agreement of General Synod or Governing Body.

  4. Ali Avatar
    Ali

    “if your denomination cannot or will not opt in then the time has come for you to stand up for what’s right. If you support equality, do something about it and show us what you are made of.” you not doing any more weddings until the SEC opts in then. Kelvin?

    1. kelvin Avatar

      I think it quite likely that should the Scottish Episcopal Church chose not to opt into the coming legislation then I would come to be view that the time had come to stop signing marriage papers. That is not the same thing, of course, as stopping doing weddings.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Previous Posts

  • Black Vestments

    I noted Anne’s comment about seeing Bishop Kevin in splendid black vestments on Wednesday at Millport and it got me thinking about the wearing of black vestments here. I’ve tended to be lucky in that I’ve been in a couple of churches which have black vestments and which I very happily wear for the requiem…

  • Requiem

    We celebrate an annual requiem in St Mary’s to remember the souls of those who have died. It is on All Souls’ Day each year and that’s today, 2 November. The service takes place at 7.30 tonight. It is a service where people come to remember others who have died. We remember them in our…

  • Sermon preached for All Saints 2011

    One of the nights of my life which I most remember  is the night that I was ordained as a priest. It was in our cathedral in Perth and was very magnificent. Someone preached a great sermon. The music was as good as it could have been. The crowd was large and their welcoming of…

  • Tented Villages

    Rather hoping that I don’t find the Cathedral grounds filled up by a tented village of people protesting about something when I go back to work. I’m trying not to comment too directly upon the internal workings of another cathedral. However, the PR disaster that is St Paul’s does make me want to assert this……