• The #syriavote is not so simple really

    Like many people in the UK, I spent much of yesterday dipping into what was happening in parliament as a long debate took place as to whether this country should engage in military action against ISIL in Syria.

    I once had aspirations to be an MP and that always makes me wonder which division lobby I would have walked into when these moments of national drama take place.

    In this instance I am almost sure that I would have walked into the nay lobby – I’d have voted against extending military action in Syria.

    However, I don’t find this a simple question. It is far more complex than my twitter feed seems to be suggesting. And this morning I’m not rushing to add #notinmyname hashtags to everything. This is a case where I can see merit on both side of the question and I find that my gut reaction which is to be against military action is more pragmatic than ideological.

    I happen not to be a pacifist. I am not a pacifist because I think that sometimes there are evils that may need to be defeated by force. The obvious and classic example is that I think that the allied forces were right to be deployed to defeat Nazism. It was an ideology that threatened all of Europe with its evil. Some things are worth fighting against.

    It is my suspicion that ISIL is something worth fighting against that would have made me pause before casting a vote had I been in parliament last night. I find myself having sympathy with Hilary Benn who identified the threat from ISIL as being the fascism of the day. So many of the same themes emerge – death to the Jews, death to the gays, murderous sectarianism and a direct opposition to democracy. The fact that it now uses terrorism on Western streets and wickedly distorts Islam for its own ends shouldn’t blind us to the fact that we’ve seen fascism before and have believed it should be fought.

    And that’s why I can see that there’s a case for action.

    My problem is largely because I can’t see the action being particularly likely to succeed which is one of the conditions of using force in just war theory.

    I can’t really see that there’s a plan for post conflict rebuilding of Syria yet. I can’t really see how another two bombers will make that much difference – the Americans have been bombing ISIL targets for months and don’t seem to me to have solved the problem. It is inevitable that civilians will die in this action. It is difficult to believe that the action will meet the test of proportionality. I also don’t really believe that you can bomb ideas out of existence.

    And so I find myself believing action to be wrong for pragmatic reasons whilst believing that ISIL should be confronted for ideological reasons. And that would have given me a terrible dilemma has I been in parliament.

    Two things emerged yesterday which I found contemptible. Firstly the Prime Minister’s assertion that those who were against action were terrorist sympathisers. It was beneath the dignity of his office to make such a claim and he should have apologised. Secondly, those who are trying to co-opt this question for the sake of Scottish Nationalism. It should be beneath our dignity as the people of Scotland to co-opt this terrible decision for our local politics. Whether one likes it or not, Scotland chose to remain part of the UK and the UK parliament has made a decision. Being democrats means that sometimes we have to respect the democratic decisions that are made that we don’t like. That’s what being a democrat actually is. That means those who don’t like the result of the Scottish Referendum need to accept that the people of Scotland made an informed choice. It is our parliament that made the decision last night – a decision I happen to find it difficult to support. It is a parliament that the people of Scotland chose to remain a part of. Using ISIL to make cheap nationalist points in this country appals me. If we don’t accept democratic decision making (the referendum, the workings of parliament in which we are all represented etc) then we begin to lose the moral right to stand against the forces which rage against democracy wherever we encounter them.

    We encounter them in ISIL. The question at hand is how to oppose them.

    Last night I think that I would have voted against the government and against the use of force in Syria. However I would have done so with a heavy heart. It is just possible that after listening to the debates I might have voted with the government and for the use of force against the evils of ISIL. I would have done so with an even heavier heart though I would have done so hoping that if my own land was being conquered by fascists, then other countries would intervene.

    That’s why this issue is more complex than my twitter feed seems to find it.

20 responses to “But when is Harvest? Please, please, when is it?”

  1. Sue Avatar
    Sue

    Knitted food patterns…
    http://www.knitfish.com/12/

  2. Elizabeth Avatar
    Elizabeth

    I really appreciated the Lammastide sermon and service. But I’m not sure if I said so at the time – probably not!

    I’m reminded how important it is to share appreciation as well as (more than!) criticism. Perhaps a new year’s resolution in the making.

  3. Jimmy Avatar

    Harvest.

    Autumn is here
    and there is no harvest
    The trees have leaves but no fruit
    The wheat has ears but no grain
    and if you should return
    I wouldn’t know
    how to begin to explain

    I would offer you a gift
    but of all the things I own
    all I have is my sin
    all I have that’s mine alone

    Spare me – I pray
    another year or two
    if you will extend your hand
    I will fill a harvest basket for you

    I have laboured in these fields
    among this bracken, broom and whin
    and a lifetime to understand
    all you wanted was my sin.

  4. PamB Avatar
    PamB

    Ah, the Grauniad! No – I only see that when I’m in a primary school staff-room, and never had the time to open it.
    But cute pattern – might be the next addition to the Choir dog collection.

  5. Scott from the States Avatar
    Scott from the States

    Over here in the U.S. we have our national Thanksgiving Day (when very few actually go to church) designated to celebrate the harvest, peace and an end to civil strife, and general thanksgiving. Perhaps the UK needs to take a page from the U.S. and Canada and just make it an official government holiday!

  6. Sarah from Virginia Avatar
    Sarah from Virginia

    But what I was taught in school was that the first Thanksgiving was held in imitation of the traditional Harvest celebrations back home in England. Perhaps these were not actual church services? Anyhow I’m now confused!

  7. Tim Avatar

    Incidentally, from a sample of 13 comments made on my photo of a harvest display in church, I deduce people’s expectations include:
    a) it’s long-life products, tinned or pasta, that one brings
    b) giving them to old dears who don’t really need them
    c) it’s something relegated to childhood memories

    Up to you where you draw the churchy/non-churchy line amongst that lot. Maybe it means there’s a *lot* of scope for a message of mission (to folks who normally exist outside the door) and ethics?

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