• Good Vicar, Bad Vicar

    Rather a flutter in the doocot over some comments that Justin Welby made a couple of days ago in an interview on Radio 4 which is worth listening to in its entirety. The quote that has got people talking is this one:

    The reality is that where you have a good vicar you will find growing churches.

    [The Church] needs to be very flexible in how it engages locally and it needs to be very clear about it’s intention of growing its numbers. It doesn’t happen accidentally. All the research we’ve got is that if we don’t actually set out to grow the number of people and draw people to the reality of the love of God in Jesus Christ it doesn’t happen.

    But before we get to that, there were two interesting things about the interview that most people have not picked up on. Firstly the number of times the Archbishop used the word local  in describing the Church of England. Then secondly he explicitly said that it was silly to compare the Anglican Churches to the Roman Catholic Church. Want to know why that is interesting – well check out this piece from Andrew Brown which appeared in the Guardian a few days before under the heading “The Church of England’s unglamorous, local future”.

    So what the Church of England needs to do is to re-establish itself in the ordinary life of the country. Its instinct is obviously to do this with grand gestures, speeches, proclamations and debates, but this is entirely wrong. Instead of pretending it is a single coherent entity with clearly defined opinions and policies – something which simply isn’t true and never will be – it should just forget about the national level and get on with things locally.

    This lesson has already been learned slowly and painfully at the international level. The attempt to present the Anglican Communion as a coherent church that could negotiate as an equal with the Roman Catholics has been an unmitigated disaster. When the resulting posturing was not vacuous it was poisonous, especially about gay people. The Anglican Communion is finished now. The schism happened and nobody cared. Individual churches have flourishing links in the ruins and this is a good and vital thing. But this is nothing to do with the Lambeth Conferences, any more than European trade was nourished by the Holy Roman Empire.

    One would have thought, listening to the Archbishop’s interview that he had been scripted by Andrew Brown. Church is local – we are not the Roman Catholic Church seems to be the line of the week. I hope that someone gets the chance to press the Archbishop on the other elements of Andrew Brown’s thesis – that the schism has happened already and that disestablishment is already a reality.

    But I digress, what about this business of Good Vicars leading to church growth?

    The trouble is, the notion of a Good Vicar bringing about growth does tend to conjure up the idea of Bad Vicars leading to decline. Then people (by which I mean vicars, for vicars are people too, you know) get all upset because they presume that if decline is happening then they must by definition be Bad Vicar.

    It is far too simplistic a way of looking at things.

    It seems to me that what leads to growth is not simply a Good Vicar but good synchronicity between clergy and congregation. Sometimes a congregation gets someone with just the right skills for that moment and also is able to accept them, love them and allow them to lead. And sometimes that doesn’t happen.

    If anyone knew the secret of making it happen between clergy and congregations then there would not be any decline in churches.

    But then decline is caused by a lot more things than Bad Vicars anyway. Demographics are one of the big factors. If people move away from an area, the chances are that a church will suffer. If the people in an area are aging then the chances are that a congregation will be aging too. But, and it is a big but you also have to take into account different ways of thinking about locality and transport. If people are prepared to travel to get to the doctor, supermarket or hairdresser then we can presume that they will do that over religion. Add to that an increasing mistrust of denominations and you have a very complex situation. Bizarrely you still get lots of churches advertising the fact that they care about their denomination right up front on their websites when the truth is, people don’t care about that so much as whether they will find congenial company as they try to grasp the coat-tails of angels.

    In the midst of the fluttering about all this today I’ve been interested in seeing someone teasing on twitter with the notion that there is going to be some new research published soon which appears to suggest that having one priest to one congregation is the most likely situation that will lead to growth. I’ll be very interested in that if and when it comes out.

    And what of Justin Welby’s Good Vicar thesis? It is a surprising thing for him to have much to say about given how little vicaring he personally has done. More than that, it is a situation that is incredibly complicated and which isn’t just about being good or bad. Time, place, company and circumstance matter just as much as innate qualities. And yet….and yet, the truth is, I also know that within what he was saying was something rather important which is that vicars – clergy generally matter. Should they be miserable, unsupported, unloved and sad there is almost no chance of a church in their care thriving. Clergy matter an enormous amount and if one wants churches to grow one does need to think about clergy rather a lot.

    The short version is, clergy matter. And so do bums on pews. The two are related. But oh, oh – it’s complicated.

    Am I right?

7 responses to “Eucharistic Prayer”

  1. Stewart Avatar

    Another great clip Kelvin – The singing is great.

    I found myself singing along with the Santus and Benedictus.

    Please more of the service. The cathedral always sounds great when the a large congregation is being supported by the organ. The snippet of “All people that on earth do dwell” to the tune of Jerusalem on the BBC website leaves me wanting more.

  2. ryan Avatar
    ryan

    Yeah, I think ours are the best (although I heard New Zealand’s are lovely too). Who actually writes these things? The then-bishops themselves? Artistic clergy? I can see why they would want them to be written in house but (personally) I think it would be great , in the future, to approach notable writers/poets to do them (Edwin Morgan!) irrespective of belief, and have them checked for theological accuracy by someone appropriate.

  3. Caron Avatar
    Caron

    Do you know, I always thought the 1970 Liturgy was best and I couldn’t come to terms with the modern stuff. I might be more open to persuasion than I thought.

    The atmosphere at the service must have been wonderful and it does come across in the video clip.

    As for the angel – thank you so much for having that attitude to a baby. Others are not so tolerant.

  4. John Penman Avatar
    John Penman

    Totally agree on the excellence of the modern Scottish Liturgy. Having had to suffer the Roman Rite and the ASB when working in Englandshire and occassional exposure to Common Worship (which is both), it was nice to come back to what was/is “simply the best”. Being picky tho, we took a wee while to get there: 1982 was the 1st Eucharistic Prayer – the other 4 were authorised in 1990! Like Caron I was a 1970 fan, but exposure to the Blue Book has made it much more “home” for me.

  5. Eamonn Avatar
    Eamonn

    I agree that the 1982 Liturgy is unbeatable. Every time I visit the C of E or the C of I, the liturgies used seem (with respect) to have yawning gaps in them.

    Caron, the 1970 Liturgy has strengths if you want the underlying theology spelt out in propositional statements. The 1982 service more often expresses the theology through imagery, which to some of us speaks more eloquently. As it happens, a bishop who is a published poet was involved in the drafting.

  6. MadPriest Avatar
    MadPriest

    “Now, what do you want next”
    Have you got any Simpsons, or maybe an early Torchwood episode?

  7. Thomas L W Graham Avatar
    Thomas L W Graham

    Just visiting these sites for the first time. What a wonderful innovation to include all these video’s and sermons etc on the web. Hope the enclosed donation is of some assistance.

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