• The #syriavote is not so simple really

    Like many people in the UK, I spent much of yesterday dipping into what was happening in parliament as a long debate took place as to whether this country should engage in military action against ISIL in Syria.

    I once had aspirations to be an MP and that always makes me wonder which division lobby I would have walked into when these moments of national drama take place.

    In this instance I am almost sure that I would have walked into the nay lobby – I’d have voted against extending military action in Syria.

    However, I don’t find this a simple question. It is far more complex than my twitter feed seems to be suggesting. And this morning I’m not rushing to add #notinmyname hashtags to everything. This is a case where I can see merit on both side of the question and I find that my gut reaction which is to be against military action is more pragmatic than ideological.

    I happen not to be a pacifist. I am not a pacifist because I think that sometimes there are evils that may need to be defeated by force. The obvious and classic example is that I think that the allied forces were right to be deployed to defeat Nazism. It was an ideology that threatened all of Europe with its evil. Some things are worth fighting against.

    It is my suspicion that ISIL is something worth fighting against that would have made me pause before casting a vote had I been in parliament last night. I find myself having sympathy with Hilary Benn who identified the threat from ISIL as being the fascism of the day. So many of the same themes emerge – death to the Jews, death to the gays, murderous sectarianism and a direct opposition to democracy. The fact that it now uses terrorism on Western streets and wickedly distorts Islam for its own ends shouldn’t blind us to the fact that we’ve seen fascism before and have believed it should be fought.

    And that’s why I can see that there’s a case for action.

    My problem is largely because I can’t see the action being particularly likely to succeed which is one of the conditions of using force in just war theory.

    I can’t really see that there’s a plan for post conflict rebuilding of Syria yet. I can’t really see how another two bombers will make that much difference – the Americans have been bombing ISIL targets for months and don’t seem to me to have solved the problem. It is inevitable that civilians will die in this action. It is difficult to believe that the action will meet the test of proportionality. I also don’t really believe that you can bomb ideas out of existence.

    And so I find myself believing action to be wrong for pragmatic reasons whilst believing that ISIL should be confronted for ideological reasons. And that would have given me a terrible dilemma has I been in parliament.

    Two things emerged yesterday which I found contemptible. Firstly the Prime Minister’s assertion that those who were against action were terrorist sympathisers. It was beneath the dignity of his office to make such a claim and he should have apologised. Secondly, those who are trying to co-opt this question for the sake of Scottish Nationalism. It should be beneath our dignity as the people of Scotland to co-opt this terrible decision for our local politics. Whether one likes it or not, Scotland chose to remain part of the UK and the UK parliament has made a decision. Being democrats means that sometimes we have to respect the democratic decisions that are made that we don’t like. That’s what being a democrat actually is. That means those who don’t like the result of the Scottish Referendum need to accept that the people of Scotland made an informed choice. It is our parliament that made the decision last night – a decision I happen to find it difficult to support. It is a parliament that the people of Scotland chose to remain a part of. Using ISIL to make cheap nationalist points in this country appals me. If we don’t accept democratic decision making (the referendum, the workings of parliament in which we are all represented etc) then we begin to lose the moral right to stand against the forces which rage against democracy wherever we encounter them.

    We encounter them in ISIL. The question at hand is how to oppose them.

    Last night I think that I would have voted against the government and against the use of force in Syria. However I would have done so with a heavy heart. It is just possible that after listening to the debates I might have voted with the government and for the use of force against the evils of ISIL. I would have done so with an even heavier heart though I would have done so hoping that if my own land was being conquered by fascists, then other countries would intervene.

    That’s why this issue is more complex than my twitter feed seems to find it.

20 responses to “What’s really happening to the churches in Scotland”

  1. Josh Avatar
    Josh

    Interesting article. I find the decline of the church in a once heavily Christian and missionary – sending country very sad. I note that the churches that seem to be doing the best are non-denominational churches especially and then traditional churches (like baptists – which I note you don’t mention) that stick to historical teaching of the truth of Christ as the God – man who came to earth, died on the cross for our sins, and was literally and bodily resurrection on the 3rd day and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. The world doesn’t need another social club of nice ethical people. It has those and the church can never really compete. What the church has is the powerful message of grace and redemption and the ability to have a loving relationship with the Creator of the universe.

  2. David Ross Avatar
    David Ross

    The Church of Scotland is now reaping the harvest of what they sowed at General Assembly 2013.

    1. Duncan Cromb Avatar
      Duncan Cromb

      The Church of Scotland has gone all woke. What we have done is an abomination. We have gone with the world. But we are in the world and not off it. We have gone against Israel and now support Hammas who are terrorists. Genesis 12:3 says Curse Israel and we’ll be cursed, bless Israel and we’ll be blessed. You can see the decline, even in the Bristish Empire when we became a non Christian government and against Israel. I wouldn’t go back to the General Assembly after what I heard there as an elder.

  3. Duncan Wright Avatar
    Duncan Wright

    Scotland is coming back to its roots, the Orthodox Church is growing rapidly in scotland, and all over the west. And it is the younger generation coming to Orthodoxy, especially young men. Young people now are exposed to all sorts of degeneracy, vanity and the filth of this secular age. We are living in a time of weak leadership, and lack of the presence of a father figure. The modern churches are conforming to the world, and have completely fallen. There is no masculine presence or backbone, and are completely crumbling to these worldly times. I myself went to My Local church Kirk of Calder, a church of scotland church. In that time there was a vote for same sex marriage to be accepted in the church, which was put in place after a vote of 18-1. Is this any longer a church I dont think so, LORD HAVE MERCY. But we pray for them, and all our brotherhood in CHRIST that we come back to the true faith, the canons of the church, and the teachings of our Holy fathers. That we all are united again.

  4. GW Avatar
    GW

    Why no mention of churches and denominations that are growing?
    The Assembly of God church in Fraserburgh has just completed a new building that can seat 1000 as its old hall could only seat 450. Despite this, it still had to use of booking system and had to run 3 services on a single Sunday a couple of weeks ago to ensure everyone could attend that week.

    1. Mairi Avatar
      Mairi

      how wonderful!

  5. Clare Mccann Avatar

    who says? if two people love one another, let the Church marry them, people interpret Sodom and Gomorrah and the New Testament differently. we legalised same sex marriage in a civil way and its 20 years since civil partnerships and society has survived. what does Joel Osteen do to get more people in his Church than Ibrox or Parkhead can hold? same sex marriage is hardly an issue, the charisma of the preacher is, the Kirk wouldnt take money from the National Lottery to save its buildings or have bars in its halls to sell alcohol, so who is to blame for the decline?

    1. Mike Burnett Avatar
      Mike Burnett

      Those churches and denominations which are seeing growing congregations are not selling alcohol either. I believe that the difference between growing and declining churches is nothing to do with the charisma of the preachers and all to do with the message.

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