What is in Kelvin's Head?

  • Prayer for Flight MH17

    It would appear from news report that are still breaking that there is a very strong likelihood that the Malaysian plane which has crashed in the Ukraine has been brought down deliberately by someone as yet unknown but connected with the conflict that rages in that part of the world.

    It is one of those moments where the world looks on with horror at something utterly terrible.

    I find myself struggling to know how to pray in circumstances like this but prayer must be found somehow. How to form a prayer for Flight MH17? Something prompts me to think of St Adamnan of Iona – one of those saints whom more people should know about. He is most famous for writing a biography of St Columba but should be far better known for his Law of the Innocents. It was one of the first attempts to lessen the savagery of warfare by getting those fighting to commit to leave the innocent untouched by conflict. Adamnan’s witness shines like a beacon from the Celtic lands. A product of what we now know are Ireland and Scotland, his influence is with us today and his message is entwined with modern diplomacy, concepts of human rights and the work of all who strive for peace.

    So Adamnan of Iona, prompt our prayers….

    Eternal God
    for all those killed this day,
    for those killed in warfare,
    for those who work for peace,
    for those killed on flight MH17,
    for those who work for justice,
    for those who are innocent who are killed in the conflicts of others,
    for diplomats, peacemakers, politicians and opinion formers in all places of danger.
    Lord in your mercy,
    Hear our prayer.

    , ,

7 responses to “Revised Commenting Policy”

  1. Darren Moore Avatar
    Darren Moore

    I try to stick to the policy, whilst commenting on it.

    Most of it pretty understandable/standard. But,
    1.using Scripture as a weapon/quoting isolated verses. To a point I agree, but surely as well as the whole has to be understood as part of the whole, the whole is made us by parts. People misuse the Bible by taking a verse out of context, but they can easily be shown up. Otherwise we can’t use the Bible at all, other than saying – read all of it – there’s something that relates to what I’m saying.

    2. How does the disclaimer square with not being able to comment on PSA? Is that a given (i.e. that it’s nonsense)? Are other opinions banned? Like Roman Catholic views. Even if (highly unlikely) it’s a minority view, are other historically minority views banned (charismatics, baptists) and non-Christians and all liberals – as there views are pretty minority.

    3. Likening gay people to murderers. Unpleasant I agree. Although if (if I may quote a verse – but not to prove a point), this a reference to the 2nd 1/2 of Romans 1, the list includes people who disobey parents and the greedy. Presumably they’re still fair game?

    Just not sure this quite stacks. It’s why people ask, “What are you afraid of?” when it comes to PSA?

    Reply
    1. Kelvin Avatar
      Kelvin

      Darren – thank you for your interest. However. the question is not whether you think this commenting policy quite stacks but whether I do.

      Reply
  2. John Sandeman Avatar
    John Sandeman

    Kelvin,
    When reading about theories of the atonement, there is a real risk of continually reading things that have been said many times over – as you point out. But can I credit you with something reasonably original? “We’ve already established that like most Christian people I don’t believe in it.” I have never worked out how to determine the proportions of Christians who believe the various atonement theories. Is there some research out there?

    Reply
    1. Kelvin Avatar
      Kelvin

      Thanks John – I’m not aware of any research though I’d be interested in any there was. When I wrote that, I was thinking not simply of who believes what now but also of Christians through time. The history of these various ways of understanding the (or an) atonement is fairly well attested and it is clear that some have risen and fallen through time.

      My presumption is that most of the people in the great blocks of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches (both now and through history) don’t believe in penal substitution – or at least, don’t believe it in the same way that a classical evangelical might believe in it as doctrine which must be personally accepted in order to lead to individual salvation. However, as you rightly point out, who believes what may not be so simple.

      Reply
  3. Darren Moore Avatar
    Darren Moore

    There are a few bits of research on this, but mostly from the context of PSA
    E.g. Chapter 5 of “Pierced for our Transgressions”, by Jeffery, Ovey & Sach (IVP), which is a quite survey of theologians, east & west, a dozen of which are pre-reformation, starting with Justin Martyr.

    Henri Blocher, “Biblical Metaphors of the atonement”, in the journal of the evangelical theological society, 47 (2004), pp629-645
    “The divine substitution: The atonement in the Bible and history” by Shaw & Edwards (Day One).

    I get the your blog, your rules. Just doesn’t sound like decent is welcome.

    Reply
    1. Darren Moore Avatar
      Darren Moore

      Bit of a PS,
      Robert Letham’s, “Through Western eyes”
      Looks at the differences & common ground with E-orthodoxy on lots of things, including salvation. Letham (Reformed), thinks there’s lots to get from the East re:-Trinity in worship, incarnational stuff, divination (rightly understood), but still holds that his “Reformed”

      Reply
    2. Kelvin Avatar
      Kelvin

      Well, Darren, I’ve found that there are quite a number of people who do want to meet and chat without the Atonement Thought Police stepping in to correct them all the time. In fact, though I expect you’ll be surprised to hear it, to those who don’t believe that particular doctrine, comments rather like your own can appear to be quite aggressive and verging on bullying.

      So, you may not feel welcome to behave exactly as you like here. You are not. And there’s a comminity of folk who like it that way.

      Reply

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Previous Posts

  • Sermon

    Here is last Sunday's sermon, which one or two people have been asking for. The Gospel reading that I have just read contains within it something of a conundrum. There is a hidden puzzle in it. An embedded surprise. We are reading just at the start of Mark’s gospel – the first of the gospels…

  • Flyposting for Jesus

    To the University of Glasgow yesterday for a seminar in the theology department. One of the questions we were looking at was, “Who owns clergy bodies?” (Answers on a postcard, please). The other one was about whether churches attitudes to same-sex couples inhibits people’s human rights. In in dealing with these questions, I was quite…

  • Primates Meeting Communique

    The Primates of the Anglican Communion have been meeting this week in Egypt. Their communique can be read here. I see also that they have been hobnobbing with Pope Shenouda III of the Coptic Church. Just before being ordained, I spent some time in Egypt, including a very memorable and enjoyable evening at one of…

  • 2009-02-01 Kelvin Holdsworth

    Here is the sermon from this morning. (Note that I've been having technical problems for the last week or two and getting the sermons off one of the two video cameras has not been succesful). I want, this morning, simply to say a couple of things about the feast day which we are celebrating this…