• Crunch time for the Church of England

    It is make your mind up time for the Church of England this week on the question of whether to move to open the Episcopate to female candidates. Somehow or another the synodical process in England has reached what seems to be a very unfortunate place. After many compromises to ensure that those who are opposed to the change could remain more easily in the C of E, legislation was drafted and send around their dioceses for approval – 42 out of 44 agreed to it. It was then sent to their House of Bishops who had a go at tinkering with it. It is that tinkering which has caused all kinds of bother. In short, the bishops made more explicit in the legislation some of the compromises that had been made earlier. Now their synod can only choose whether or not to return the legislation to the bishops to ask them to think again or agree to it and implicitly accept something that many, including many senior women clergy (and Lucy Winkett) find unacceptable.

    Looking on from outside, I think I feel that too many compromises have been made of over this already and I hope I’d have the courage to vote no if I was on a synod that had to made its mind up. Better, I think, to wait for a more equitable way forward, than to enshrine inequality in legislation that will be almost impossible to undo later on.

    The central problem is that the C of E managed to develop this system whereby some people within an Episcopal church could think that some bishops do not have the power that real bishops really have and that some priests may not really be priests at all.

    We don’t have the same issues in Scotland. You can think your bishop is not a real bishop all you like, but our canons don’t allow you to behave as though that it true. In England, that’s much less clear.

    At the centre of it all is this idea of “taint”, surely one of the most unpleasant theological concepts doing the rounds. Everyone says they don’t believe in it – however, the idea that a parish could require the supply of an alternative bishop who shares their theological convictions against the ordination of women, has never ordained women himself and has not been himself consecrated by someone who has consecrated or ordained women himself does rather look like a system which regards some people as tainted.

    Why should we care about this in the Scottish Episcopal Church? After all, we believe in the autonomy of other Provinces, don’t we? Well, the implications for us are quite serious.

    At one of our Episcopal consecrations not that long ago, we had a female co-consecrator from Sweden. (I tried to teach her the Gay Gordons at the party afterwards). The bishop whom she helped to consecrate has himself joined in, with all our other bishops, in the consecration of two more bishops.   And our Primus joined in, on our behalf, in consecrating the new female bishop in Iceland just a few weeks ago.

    Now, where does this leave us. I’ve an uncomfortable feeling that right now, those signs which hang outside some of our churches proclaiming us to be in full communion with the Church of England make a statement which, if tested, might actually be found to be untrue.

    With regard to the Church of England, this idea that you can choose your bishop according to your own theological peccadillos has done untold damage to the Anglican Communion. Its theology lies behind so very much of our recent sad history.

    I believe in Anglican Churches being broad churches. However, I can’t see how one can really have a church which legislates for people who don’t believe that some of its bishops are bishops.

    So, hoping and praying that someone manages to pull a rabbit out of an ecclesiastical mitre. Otherwise, sisters and brothers – Just Say No!

12 responses to “Do you believe that God intervenes in the world?”

  1. Mark Chambers Avatar
    Mark Chambers

    I think this is probably the best way to think about prayer. When you say the world is affected by praying people, are you saying there is a link between prayer and improved behaviour or increased charity etc ?

    1. kelvin Avatar

      Well, I guess if I think that I’m changed by prayer, I probably hope that it affects me for the better.

      I might even be prepared to say that unless prayer changes the person praying, it probably isn’t being done right at all.

  2. Dyfed Avatar

    Thanks for this thoughtful piece.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly that prayer is about me being silent before God for a moment. Such a silence is so necessary in the midst of our busy lives and busy minds.

    But I do believe in healing – physical, emotional, and spiritual. I have no experience of physical healing but I have plenty of experience of the emotional kind. As someone who was left very angry and full of shame following an episode of abuse as a young child, I have certainly known God’s love wash away those feelings as I have been prayed for by friends.

  3. Ruth Richards-Hill Avatar
    Ruth Richards-Hill

    Before I ever ventured into the concept of prayers being answered, my journey took me to a place where I asked myself “who or what is this G-d I am communicating with?”

    My idea of g-d has nothing to do with an old man with a long beard sitting in the clouds looking down on us, but rather a positive spiritual consciousness that we are all connected to.

    When I pray I tap into this consciousness and often prayer, when used as a form of meditation, brings to me the answers I need, even sometimes realising that they are not rhe answers I want.

    Does g-d intervene? In my interpretation definitely yes. But not necessarily in the way we traditionally expect. Intervention from G-d in my life has always involved realisations as to how I should deal with the very personal things I pray about and for. I have often cleared my mind for prayer in Church and found unthought of solutions to my problems come rushing into the void.

    As for tangible interventions such as g-d curing cancer, I think we find ourselves dealing with similar spiritual issues such as destiny, freedom of choice and the like which become interwoven with our concept of prayer and its use and usefulness.

    I do believe prayer brings healing too, but I could write a blogpost of my own about that.

    The question is a huge one, and if we can accept that the answer we get is not always the one we’re seeking then the value of prayer becomes priceless, regardless of our religious/spiritual path.

    I dont comment often, but I couldnt resist replying, sorry for the long reply.

  4. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    What do we mean by ‘intervene’??

    Not perhaps a foolish question. Let me put it another way, or rather let me borrow from Terry Pratchett/Neil Gaiman the words they put in the mouth of their sorely tempted (to save the world) Christ figure, a small boy: ‘Seems to me, the only sensible thing is for people to know that it they kill a whale they’ve got a dead whale.’ I am fond of saying that God lets us run around barefoot in the snow until we see the good sense in wearing wellies in it. The only way the world works is if it has consequences.

    That said, I think there are ways he does intervene.

    As regards prejudice – I’m with Shaw and Pratchett on that too – thoughts are too powerful to be let to run into paths which corrupt and anything that stops us seeing the equal worth of the life and love of another is downright evil. While people are made miserable, or made to suffer consequences, because their skin is one or another colour, or they love their own gender, or anything else which stops us valuing the person before us, then we can never let such attitudes breed in ourselves, or go unchallenged when they pass before us, whatever the cost. This is a quite different thing from disagreeing on matters which are almost certainly so complex that we struggle to understand them almost as much as my dogs struggle to understand when happens when I to work, and how that links into the bowls of food which turn for breakfast each day.

  5. Mark Chambers Avatar
    Mark Chambers

    Far be it from me to say what is and isn’t god or to doubt your experience but it could be said that your example of intervention is a common result from any meditation, religious or otherwise.

    1. kelvin Avatar

      Yes, that’s right.

      But that doesn’t prove a great deal either. It could simply show that God is with those who least suspect that God is with them. (Which would fit rather with some of the ways in which Christians do understand God).

  6. RevRuth Avatar

    Just came across this…
    Lord, I do not presume to tell you what to do,
    or how and when to do it.
    I simply bring before you
    people who need your love,
    and needs which your grace alone can meet.
    Let love reign, O my God.
    Let grace avail.

  7. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    All the same, I do not wholly discount the possibility that God might have so structured things that he does actually need our help in praying for actual events (healing eg.)

    IF there IS ‘non-medical healing’ (and plenty of people believe in it) it would be just like God to so structure it that it is hard for him to do alone. He has, after all, structured justice that way, and absolutely enjoined us to join him in pursuing it. (FWIW, I believe that in the parable it is God who is the Importunate Widow).

  8. Tim Avatar

    I’m inclined to agree.

    Panentheistic immanence implies God is already *in* (and, indeed, permeating through) the world so the idea of intervention becomes moot.

  9. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    I believe that above all God really really wants us to grow up, take responsibility and help in his work – I believe most things are set up to draw us into this.

  10. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    I like that Tim – I think that yes ‘intervention’ fails to grapple with immanence.

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