• Conversations with Catholics (and others)

    KH in pulpit by the crucifix

    Over the next couple of weeks, I’m trying something new and a bit different at St Mary’s. I’m offering coffee and a chat to a couple of different kinds of  people who are always present within the congregation. Tomorrow morning (Saturday 9 January 2016) I’m having a coffee morning for people in the congregation who have Roman Catholic roots. There’s always a significant number of such people in St Mary’s and I thought it might be interesting to get some of us together for a chat. In a fortnight’s time I’ll be repeating the exercise with those who have a background as evangelicals. I’ll see how these go and then see whether  there’s any other groups which might want to meet. A  couple of people said that they grew up as presbyterians and they should have a coffee morning but I’m not sure whether that one is one to go for or not. Another possibility that I’ve thought of is a chat with those who fit the Spiritual Seeker profile – those who’ve meditated with Buddhists, banged their drums, sweated in their sweat lodges, spun in circles and knitted their own lentils. We’ve always got a fair representation from that constituency and it might be interesting to gather such people together.

    However, I’m starting with catholics because I know that those who come from a Roman Catholic background have a common conversation though not necessarily a common experience. Some come to St Mary’s who are quite clear that they are Roman Catholics still and that St Mary’s just happens to be a resting place for them on their journey. Others have an articulate conversation about what they have left behind and why they needed to move on from the Roman Catholic church and find something new. Rather intriguingly there’s a mix between those who come to St Mary’s because it allows them to live out their catholicism and those who come because it allows them to say that they’ve moved on from it.

    St Mary’s offers an interesting place for those with catholic roots to worship. For many there’s the surprise that the worship is just like the worship that they have known within Roman Catholicism.

    I once said to a liturgist that it wonderful, amazing and surprising that the modern Roman Catholic Mass was so similar to the liturgy of the Scottish Episcopal Church. “Not amazing at all!” he exclaimed – “we all of us, Romans and Anglicans and all the rest went to the same liturgy conferences in the 1970s”. Sadly in recent years with the new translation of the Roman Catholic mass into (terrible) English, we’ve moved a little further apart again but you can still very much recognise that things are essentially the same.

    I’m soemtimes puzzled by the reactions of Roman Catholics who find themselves present in St Mary’s. We often have tourists who come from Roman Catholics countries who presume that it is a Roman Catholic church. They do so even, in my experience, when a female colleague has been celebrating at the Sung Eucharist. This puzzles me. But also encourages me a little.

    For many from a catholic background we provide what they would have hoped for from their own church – a mass they recognise, social teaching on sexuality, marriage and divorce that is as positive as the catholic social teaching on economics that they believe in and a shared love and devotion to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist alongside a love for his mother too. There are no doubt negatives – the sorrow of families feeling parted by church divisions over the Eucharist. (Everyone is welcome to receive in St Mary’s but that doesn’t begin to scratch the deep irritations surrounding who is and who is not able to receive communion in various churches). There are also confusing messages that the Scottish Episcopal Church sends out about membership that we might talk about. People tend to know they are Roman Catholics and tend not to be entirely sure whether they are Scottish Episcopalians. That could well be part of the conversation.

    I’m looking forward to this and expect I’ll learn things. The invitation is open to anyone who wants to come and have a coffee with me in the Synod Hall on Saturday morning at 10.30.

16 responses to “St Andrew's Day 2008”

  1. Christina Avatar
    Christina

    On a related theme, was there not a year recently when we had to move the assumption because it fell on Ash Wednesday? I don’t remember Christmas being delayed, but of course, can’t comment on the delay of the second coming.

  2. Christina Avatar
    Christina

    And I know I meant “annunciation” before you point it out to me.

  3. Rob Murray Brown Avatar
    Rob Murray Brown

    Is there a reason that the two celebrations cant be held on the same day? Do you really think that Christ would object to sharing a day with one of his disciples. I think not!

  4. kelvin Avatar

    I think that it is more about giving the church the full opportunity to concentrate on both.

    The themes that we remember at Christ the King (ie how Jesus undermines all our expectations of monarchy and power) don’t fit terribly well with theme we think about on St Andrew’s Day (thinking about missions and spreading faith in the world and also praying for Scotland). Advent 1 is something else altogether and also does not make a good fit.

    I quite like the way the calendar works as it is a good reminder to us that being God’s people is something that happens daily, not weekly.

  5. Rob Murray Brown Avatar
    Rob Murray Brown

    Im feel sure that your congregation would manage to digest more than one message on any particular day. The fact is that St Andrews Day is on the 30 November each year – every 7 or so years this will fall on a Sunday. I cant remember it ever being moved before and see no reason to start in 2009.

  6. Kelvin Avatar
    Kelvin

    St Andrews Day is on 1 December this year in the Scottish Episcopal Calendar as it is every year when 30 November falls on a Sunday.

    It is the way the Ecclesiastical calendar works.

    To quote fully from the published Calendar:

    Each Holy and Saint’s Day listed in the Calendar has been assigned a number which indicates its category.
    It is intended that feasts in categories 1 – 4 (below) should be kept by the whole Church. Days in categories 5 and
    6 may be kept according to diocesan or local discretion. Commemorations not included in this Calendar may be
    observed with the approval of the Bishop.
    When two celebrations fall on the same day, the following table indicates which takes precedence.
    1 Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday;
    Easter Day (and the weekdays following);
    Pentecost;
    Ash Wednesday; Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday in Holy Week; Ascension Day;
    Christmas Day ; Epiphany;
    Sundays of Advent, Lent and Easter.
    2 Feasts of The Lord (Naming, Presentation, Annunciation, Transfiguration);
    Trinity Sunday; All Saints’ Day;
    Dedication and Patronal Festivals;
    Eves of Christmas and Pentecost;
    First Sunday after Christmas;
    First Sunday after Epiphany (the Baptism of the Lord).
    3 Sundays after Christmas (except Christmas 1);
    Sundays after Epiphany (except Epiphany 1);
    Sundays after Pentecost (except Pentecost 1);
    Weekdays in Lent.
    4 Feasts of the Apostles and Evangelists;
    Saint Mary the Virgin, the Visit to Elizabeth;
    Joseph, John the Baptist (Birth, Beheading);
    Mary Magdalene; Michael and All Angels;
    Stephen, the Holy Innocents;
    Kentigern, Patrick, Columba, Ninian, Margaret of Scotland.
    5 All Souls’ Day; Holy Cross Day;
    Conception and Birth of Mary, Mother of the Lord;
    Thanksgiving for the Institution of the Holy Communion (Corpus Christi);
    Thanksgiving for Harvest.
    6 Other commemorations.
    Notes:
    (i) Epiphany may be kept on the Sunday following 1 January, and the Ascension on the Seventh Sunday of
    Easter.
    (ii) Feasts in Category 2, falling on a weekday, may be kept on the nearest Sunday, except Sundays in
    Categories 1 and 2.
    (iii) Feasts in Category 4, falling on a day of higher category (other than a weekday in Lent), should be
    transferred (in chronological order) to the next available weekday.
    (iv) Where feasts in Category 4 fall on a Sunday (other than a Sunday in Categories 1 and 2), they may, if local
    circumstances require, be kept on that day.
    (v) The weekdays of Advent and Easter may be given special weighting.
    (vi) When days in Category 6 coincide with a day of higher category, they should be omitted that year.
    (vii) Thanksgiving for the Institution of Holy Communion is particularly associated with the Thursday after
    Trinity Sunday.
    (viii) Thanksgiving for the Harvest may take place on any appropriate Sunday.

    The full thing can be found within this zip file:
    http://www.scotland.anglican.org/media/liturgy/liturgy/calendar_and_lectionary_pdf.zip

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