• Conversations with Catholics (and others)

    KH in pulpit by the crucifix

    Over the next couple of weeks, I’m trying something new and a bit different at St Mary’s. I’m offering coffee and a chat to a couple of different kinds of  people who are always present within the congregation. Tomorrow morning (Saturday 9 January 2016) I’m having a coffee morning for people in the congregation who have Roman Catholic roots. There’s always a significant number of such people in St Mary’s and I thought it might be interesting to get some of us together for a chat. In a fortnight’s time I’ll be repeating the exercise with those who have a background as evangelicals. I’ll see how these go and then see whether  there’s any other groups which might want to meet. A  couple of people said that they grew up as presbyterians and they should have a coffee morning but I’m not sure whether that one is one to go for or not. Another possibility that I’ve thought of is a chat with those who fit the Spiritual Seeker profile – those who’ve meditated with Buddhists, banged their drums, sweated in their sweat lodges, spun in circles and knitted their own lentils. We’ve always got a fair representation from that constituency and it might be interesting to gather such people together.

    However, I’m starting with catholics because I know that those who come from a Roman Catholic background have a common conversation though not necessarily a common experience. Some come to St Mary’s who are quite clear that they are Roman Catholics still and that St Mary’s just happens to be a resting place for them on their journey. Others have an articulate conversation about what they have left behind and why they needed to move on from the Roman Catholic church and find something new. Rather intriguingly there’s a mix between those who come to St Mary’s because it allows them to live out their catholicism and those who come because it allows them to say that they’ve moved on from it.

    St Mary’s offers an interesting place for those with catholic roots to worship. For many there’s the surprise that the worship is just like the worship that they have known within Roman Catholicism.

    I once said to a liturgist that it wonderful, amazing and surprising that the modern Roman Catholic Mass was so similar to the liturgy of the Scottish Episcopal Church. “Not amazing at all!” he exclaimed – “we all of us, Romans and Anglicans and all the rest went to the same liturgy conferences in the 1970s”. Sadly in recent years with the new translation of the Roman Catholic mass into (terrible) English, we’ve moved a little further apart again but you can still very much recognise that things are essentially the same.

    I’m soemtimes puzzled by the reactions of Roman Catholics who find themselves present in St Mary’s. We often have tourists who come from Roman Catholics countries who presume that it is a Roman Catholic church. They do so even, in my experience, when a female colleague has been celebrating at the Sung Eucharist. This puzzles me. But also encourages me a little.

    For many from a catholic background we provide what they would have hoped for from their own church – a mass they recognise, social teaching on sexuality, marriage and divorce that is as positive as the catholic social teaching on economics that they believe in and a shared love and devotion to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist alongside a love for his mother too. There are no doubt negatives – the sorrow of families feeling parted by church divisions over the Eucharist. (Everyone is welcome to receive in St Mary’s but that doesn’t begin to scratch the deep irritations surrounding who is and who is not able to receive communion in various churches). There are also confusing messages that the Scottish Episcopal Church sends out about membership that we might talk about. People tend to know they are Roman Catholics and tend not to be entirely sure whether they are Scottish Episcopalians. That could well be part of the conversation.

    I’m looking forward to this and expect I’ll learn things. The invitation is open to anyone who wants to come and have a coffee with me in the Synod Hall on Saturday morning at 10.30.

9 responses to “Never mind the quality, feel the width”

  1. chris Avatar

    Gosh, you’ve hit an apparently tender spot there. As someone who was originally brought into the church – and I mean the whole shebang, not just a particular building or denomination, though that was important too – by beautiful music and dignified liturgy, I have been asking for an aspiration towards excellence for the past 30 years or so. But is it not the case that for many people that smacks of an elitism that sits ill with their idea of ‘being church’ (a vile phrase, therefore I use it not)? The idea that as church is for all, you’re not allowed to look for certain standards in music, in reading, in serving …
    I could go on, but I don’t need to. You’ve said it. Go for it! (And please delete the earlier comment, in which I was so carried away by my parenthesis that I forgot to finish the original clause)

  2. kelvin Avatar

    I was thinking about all of this yesterday. It is choir holidays at the moment and yesterday the choir were singing down in Englandshire. It might have been expected to be a bit of a flat day here. However, there was none of that. We had a good turnout and wonderful worship both morning and evening. No sign of a summer slump and it was obvious that people came expecting something good even without the regular musicians.

    Summer Sung Evensong last night attracted 37 souls. That’s 35 more than might have been expected to turn up seven years ago.

    Now, we’ll all be thrilled when the choir come back and put the icing on the cake in a few week’s time – they are full of fabulousness, but yesterday was good proof that we are not simply a one-trick musical pony.

  3. chris Avatar

    Well as you know we don’t have a choir in my church, tho’ many years ago there was a great one with children and adults. But we can still produce a frisson, and the reaction of visitors bears that out; it’s just that not everyone seems to see what produces said frisson.(I know. It’s not just us, but …)

  4. Fraser Pearce Avatar

    Excellent points and something of an encouragement to me at the moment.

    The new set up is much better on my phone, by the way.

    Fp

  5. […] it for six, it’s not just cosy log-rolling for me to affirm his point. This morning, Kelvin says what great many people won’t: that excellence and forethought and diligence and attention really do make a tremendous difference […]

  6. Rosemary Hannah Avatar
    Rosemary Hannah

    Preaching. I have a wealth of experience of hearing terrible preaching, and a wealth of hearing good. The gulf between the two is immense. I have NO IDEA how one can persuade those who cannot, really really cannot, preach to do something to raise their game. I think you hint the way is probably to persuade those who can, REALLY can to raise their game too. HOW? How when the attempt to hold a music day fails,and people generally find that a much easier thing to approach? Teaching preaching is something at which I am good – if you ever find a way, I will come along and help coach.

  7. […] worship Posted by Fr. Sam Keyes on July 23, 2012 | 0 comments Kelvin Holdsworth, Provost of St. Mary’s in Glasgow, wonders why more people don’t consider the obvious […]

  8. chris Avatar

    Couldn’t agree more about the music days either, Rosemary – we’ve held several singing workshops here, and unless they are tied in to fundraising and a BBQ the attendance tends to be thin and the usual suspects – who can generally sing quite respectably anyway – turn up.

    1. Kimberly Avatar

      but thankfully, you do a really good BBQ so there is hope yet.

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